Press Office

Aired: Sunday, 21 February, 2010 10:00
Sunday Live with Adam Boulton

Any quotes used must be attributed to Sky News, Sunday Live with Adam Boulton

ADAM BOULTON:

The charges, counter charges and slogans are flying, the election has all but started and joining us now from Reading is Labour’s deputy leader, Harriet Harman MP, thank you for being with us. Harriet Harman, have you ever seen Gordon Brown being abusive, behaving abusively towards staff?

HARRIET HARMAN:
No, and I think it is very unfair that these allegations have been put in a book before the opportunity was given to those people who were, like for example to Gus O’Donnell and the Cabinet Office, they didn’t have an opportunity to do what they’ve done today which is to deny them and to say they are actually not true, so I think it is unfair to put in a book unnamed anonymous sources, saying things that happened when the people themselves concerned have not had a chance to say well actually, that’s not right, that’s not true but I’m here at the South East Region Labour Party conference this morning in Reading and I can tell you, what’s on people’s minds here is about jobs, protecting public services, making sure we have fairness and equality so Number Ten has denied this and we are just putting it to one side as anonymous briefings.

ADAM BOULTON:
But the personality of the Prime Minister, you have said you don’t want to talk about your record, you want to talk about the future and the personality of the person …

HARRIET HARMAN:
No, we have not said that, no, no, we have not said that we don’t want to talk about our record, we are very proud …

ADAM BOULTON:
Well Douglas Alexander said that, did he not?

HARRIET HARMAN:
No, no, he hasn’t. We think there’s been big changes in Britain over the last 13 years, look at all the hospitals, the schools, look at people being better off with tax credits, but it’s tough at the moment and we have got to make sure we get the economy properly into recovery and it’s about the future that we want to make people feel secure about.

ADAM BOULTON:
I jut want to get to this point, the personality of the Prime Minister …

HARRIET HARMAN:
Well I know, but you did that aside and I don’t think that’s fair.

ADAM BOULTON:
We’re going to get on to these other things but the personality of the Prime Minister does matter doesn’t it? I mean you have … the Conservatives …

HARRIET HARMAN:
Yes, it does.

ADAM BOULTON:
… you’ve been rude about David Cameron, called him shallow and posh and all the rest of it, so if Gordon Brown was a bully with an uncontrollable temper, that would be significant wouldn’t it?

HARRIET HARMAN:
These things that have been put in the book are wrong and have been denied and, do you know, people will judge for themselves, they will have seen only last … 

ADAM BOULTON:
Well they’ve been generally denied but there are a lot of specific instances, for example the one about pushing the secretary out of the chair because she wasn’t writing fast enough, I mean I’ve heard that for the last four years, are you saying that is definitely not true?

HARRIET HARMAN:
Well it’s anonymous, the fact that you might have heard it for four years doesn’t make it true and it has been denied by the civil service and the Cabinet Office, the head of the civil service who says it’s not true. This is an anonymous briefing, there’s nobody named as having made this allegation, nobody is named and actually the reality is that things are tough for people at the moment, things are difficult and they want to be sure that we are focused on getting on with the job of making sure that we get the economy out of recession and into recover and that’s what we’re doing, so we are quite clear about this. These allegations are denied by Number Ten, they should have been put to Number Ten before the book was published but they weren’t, now the book is published they’re denied and we’re getting on with the things that actually matter and as far as the Prime Minister’s …

ADAM BOULTON:
Are you going to sue? Is the government going to sue?

HARRIET HARMAN:
I’m sure that … I don’t know what’s going to happen about that but I am saying very categorically that these are denied, these allegations, and as far as the Prime Minister is concerned, I mean you know, people can judge him for himself as I think Peter Mandelson said this morning on television, nobody has ever said he was a shrinking violet and he won’t be a shrinking violet until the economy is fully in recovery and nobody is unemployed. He passionately cares about things but that’s a good thing, not a bad thing. 

ADAM BOULTON:
Okay, all right, let’s talk about the substance then. You’ve said that it’s not true that you don’t want to campaign on your record but if we just …

HARRIET HARMAN:
Yes.

ADAM BOULTON:
If we just take last week, the pound plunged, inflation went up to 3.5%, unemployment went up by 23,000, the national debt increased by 4.3 billion to above 12% of national wealth, higher than predicted. I mean that’s not much of a record for re-election is it?

HARRIET HARMAN:
Well I think over the years before the recession hit, people saw their living standards increase, there have been a million more people being able to buy their own home, we have seen schools and hospitals rebuilt but then the economy was hit by a global economic crisis and you know, it is just nonsense for the Conservatives to say it was caused by Gordon Brown. It’s happened in Germany, it’s happened in France, it’s happened in Spain, it’s happened in the United States, it is a global problem.

ADAM BOULTON:
But you have to take responsibility for it, don’t you?

HARRIET HARMAN:
We do, we do take responsibility for the actions we’ve taken to blunt the impact of the recession on people’s lives, to protect businesses, to protect jobs, to take the action necessary, not to just let the recession take its course.

ADAM BOULTON:
What you’ve done is put up government spending and taxes, that’s what you’re taking responsibility for then isn’t it?

HARRIET HARMAN:
Well let me just … yes, let me just deal with that point about government spending, is that if you’ve got fewer people buying and selling houses, then the revenues from Stamp Duty don’t flow in to the Treasury than they would do when times are better. If you have got people claiming unemployment benefit instead of paying taxes when they are at work, then of course that means less money going in to the revenue and if you have to say to businesses, we’re going to let you defer paying your tax because we don’t want a perfectly good business to go bust and therefore we’re going to let you defer paying tax, that’s less money going in. At this point the idea of cutting back on public investment just when private investment has lost confidence, that would really pull the rug out from under the economy and we’ve said we need to support the economy to go forward, so I think that it’s been a very difficult time and people are worried but we’ve taken the action to protect the economy.

ADAM BOULTON:
What about this idea from the Conservatives of giving the public back some of their money directly and possibly helping the re-privatisation of the banks by giving the public a stake in that?

HARRIET HARMAN:
Well there is a lot of talk about forecasting and there is one forecast I’ll give you, is that that policy is another of the Tory policies which will unravel. It is completely flaky. People can go out and buy shares in the banks now but actually as far as people on modest or low income are concerned …

ADAM BOULTON:
But we know that the process of privatisation gives people an incentive.

HARRIET HARMAN:
Let me just finish this point.

ADAM BOULTON:
Yes.

HARRIET HARMAN:
That basically people can already buy shares in banks, that is already possible, and the banks are all committed to pay the money back but how does it help people on lower incomes to buy shares when the Tories say they would abolish the Child Trust Fund for families on modest and low incomes, when they’ve actually cut back the Child Tax Credit, if you’ve got two people each earning £16,000 their family wouldn’t get Child Tax Credit any more …

ADAM BOULTON:
As I understand it … as I understand it …

HARRIET HARMAN:
Actually people can buy shares if they’ve got money.

ADAM BOULTON:
… they’re saying giving people a break on buying shares, perhaps a little bit below market value, would directly compensate for taking that money away so it is just doing the same thing in a different way.

HARRIET HARMAN:
This is just a flaky policy, it doesn’t add up in practice and we’re saying to people, take a long hard look at the Tories because actually who is government matters for the job prospects for young people for the future, it matters for schools, it matters for making sure there are police there, to make sure we keep crime going down, it really matters and you can’t have…

ADAM BOULTON:
But James Purnell for example, he took a long hard look first of all at Gordon Brown and thought he should step down and now he’s taken a long hard look at Labour prospects and he has stood down as a politician altogether and he was a rising star, that’s hardly a vote of confidence is it?

HARRIET HARMAN:
Well James Purnell made a great contribution when he was in the House of Commons to parliament and to government …

ADAM BOULTON:
He’s a loss isn’t he?

HARRIET HARMAN:
… but he decided to stand down. He is a loss but we will have new people coming forward, we will have new blood and we are absolutely firmly committed to the really big challenge of making sure that we don’t have to slip into an age of austerity, which is all that the Conservatives seems to be offering, and that actually there is a better future which is fair for all, for this country. So that’s bigger than any individual except possibly the Prime Minister.

ADAM BOULTON:
Okay, and just on a couple of issues, why hasn’t Birmingham Erdington been made an all woman shortlist like so many other constituencies?

HARRIET HARMAN:
Well the … I play no part, I played no part in any selection which my husband would have had anything to do with. I think that you’d think that’s right and fair. I sit on the …

ADAM BOULTON:
No but …

HARRIET HARMAN:
But what I am trying to explain to you is I sit on the special …

ADAM BOULTON:
I thought you designated what were all women short lists or not.

HARRIET HARMAN:
Yes, but what I’m saying is I sit on the Special Selection Panel which decides which constituencies should have all women short lists and which should have open short lists. We are very determined to increase the amount of women’s responsibility but we don’t have …

ADAM BOULTON:
Yes, so why not at Birmingham Erdington?

HARRIET HARMAN:
Let me just finish. We don’t have all the constituencies all women short lists, nobody has suggested that, that’s not the case. About half of the constituencies are all women short lists and about half are open short list, in order to increase the women’s representation. Because my husband was going to be putting in for that seat, I stepped back and I didn’t play any part in that selection process and left it to the Special Selection Panel to decide and they decided on a number of seats, some were all women, some are open. As far as the open short lists are concerned, it’s open to anybody to apply for them so I think it wouldn’t have been right for me to play a part in that particular selection.

ADAM BOULTON:
So it was nothing to do with you?

HARRIET HARMAN:
No, absolutely. I didn’t play any part in it because I would have had an interest in it. 

ADAM BOULTON:
Right, okay, just finally there have been reports that skirts are going to be banned in schools because they cause sexual discrimination or something like that. You’re the Equalities Minister, is there any truth in that?

HARRIET HARMAN:
Well that’s not anything I’ve heard and quite often these rumours turn out to be either not true or somebody completely misunderstanding the law. I mean we are …

ADAM BOULTON:
So what is your policy on skirts, are you pro-skirt?

HARRIET HARMAN:
You know what, we don’t have a policy on skirts. The school uniform policy – is it school uniform you are talking about?

ADAM BOULTON:
Yes, school uniform.

HARRIET HARMAN:
Yes, school uniform policy is a matter for each individual school. Actually as Equalities Minister I have got plenty else to be dealing with like unequal pay for men and women, like people from poorer backgrounds not having an equal start in life, I’m getting on with those things and I’m not worrying about skirts right now.

ADAM BOULTON:
The suggestion is because you are the Equalities Minister, this is from the Times yesterday, I’m surprised it hasn’t been drawn to your attention, "Equality and human rights laws may make it illegal for schools to force girls to wear skirts because uniforms discriminate against transsexuals."

HARRIET HARMAN:
I think that that … I think that that is unlikely. I think there is an issue about discrimination against transsexuals but I just, I can’t see how that … that’s not been brought to my attention in relation to school uniform policy and actually, you know, it’s important to have equality between men and women, it’s important to have equality on grounds of race, nobody wants to see discrimination on grounds of disability or sexual orientation, that’s the sort of nasty type of situation, we don’t like that so we need to have positive and sensible measures to deal with it.

ADAM BOULTON:
This is a serious question, is it okay for schools to say boys wear trousers, girls wear skirts and dresses, is that okay with you or do you regard that as being stereotyping?

HARRIET HARMAN:
I think that’s the case in a lot of schools in this country and I don't think anybody has ever suggested that that is unlawful so I think it’s one of those stories which will … you know, I don't know where it’s come from.

ADAM BOULTON:
Okay, Harriet Harman, thank you for not skirting round the issues and joining us from Reading.

HARRIET HARMAN:
Thank you.