Press Office

Aired: Sunday, 6 February, 2005 16:4
Please credit Sunday with adam Boulton, Sky News

6th February, 2005

 

Interview with Lord Patten, Oxford University Chancellor

 

Any excerpts used to be attributed to Sky News’ ‘Sunday With Adam Boulton’

programme.

Boulton : Joining me now is Oxford University’s Chancellor Chris Patton who was ennobled in the House of Lords this week. Do you think you are going to be a Lord for life?

Patten : For life I guess but I am going to do some other things as well.

Boulton : You won’t vote yourself out of existence

Patten : Well maybe. I used to be in favour of a partially, directly elected House of Lords and I still think that is an attractive option.

Boulton : Now this threat, or is it a threat from Oxford University to go independent, effectively says to the government that we don’t need your money. We will charge fees and that that will pay for us, is that really on?

Patten : No I don’t think so. There are some people who feel that, understandably, because the government over the last few years have mixed meanless towards the universities with interference and that inevitably means that some people say that if we are not going to get the money  we might as well stand on our own. We are independent already but we might as well be completely private. I don’t actually think that is sensible. I do think we have to raise more money ourselves through endowments like Yale and Harvard do, but our main task is to try to remain  world class even if we are not getting enough government support and that is what we have been talking about in the last few days.

Boulton : Can you be world class if you are selecting your entry students, not necessarily on the basis of ability but on the basis of background as Gordon Brown has insisted through this new regulator?

Patten : Well we are not going to select anybody on the basis of postcodes. It is important that all universities, in particular Oxford, Cambridge, Imperial, UCL and others scour the country for the best talent. We want the best young people at Oxford whatever their background. That is why we want to increase the bursaries for poorer students. We also want to have . . .

Boulton : I understand that but you have been set specific targets of people that have to come from state education, people who have to come from deprived backgrounds.

Patten : Look most universities, and the two I know best are Newcastle and Oxford, are doing a huge amount to try and get out and encourage young people to come to university. The problem is that in a lot of our inner city areas, and our comprehensives there is a poverty of aspiration. There are for example too few young people staying on after 16 and too few who think that the best universities . . .

Boulton : So should there be a specific quota which is what the government is working on?

Patten : I think to set quotas is rather insulting to universities which are doing a great deal themselves to try to improve and open up access. The problem we face isn’t that the universities themselves aren’t doing their jobs. Most of the problems we face are in  secondary education system. Now I hope the government are successful in improving things there. I think they have been reasonably successful . . .

Boulton : Are you an A-levels man or get rid of A-levels?

Patten : I am an A-levels man. I can see the case for the international Bacalaureat. I think there are a number of schools that have introduced it successfully. But I think when you have, as it were a  gold standard  it is not very sensible to start mucking around with it. The really important thing that we want to be able to do at Oxford is to stay world class. That involves increasing the number of post graduates that we have got. It means improving teaching which means we have to reduce the number of under graduates a bit because that number has gone up hugely in the last few years without increasing academic staff. And we have got I hope the chance of increasing the total number of British students, post graduate and under graduate.

Boulton : And you are saying that this £3,000 top up fee just is not going to do it?

Patten : It doesn’t actually amount to £3,000 by the time you have reckoned on the £1,000 , £1,100 that people pay already. It is about £1,900 extra. It makes a difference and I think the government were brave to push it through against the opposition of their back benchers. But it is not a lifeline for all time against a background where all universities have found that we have doubled the number of students but halved the investment per student. That means that there isn’t much petrol left in the tank.

Boulton : Albeit for people who need bursaries are you effectively saying that people who get top class education, at the Tertiary level should have to pay more for it, whether they are foreigners or British?

Patten : I’m saying that you cannot go on making a loss as it were out of higher education. We lose out on teaching, we lose out on research. That puts more and more strain on libraries, on buildings, on academic staff and it puts more on pay. So we over the long term have got to pay more. When I came into politics 25 years ago we used to have wage and price controls and everybody though the ceiling would fall in if you removed price controls.

Boulton: We have universal free primary and secondary school education. The argument the government makes is that it wants to move towards 50% of people going into tertiary education as that is for the benefit of society so we should all pay through our taxes.

Patten : Well what is interesting is that we have almost free higher education but that hasn’t resulted in more social inclusion in higher education. If you look at the proportions there is still as few people from blue collar backgrounds going to university proportionally as there were when I went when only 6% went to university. So free higher education hasn’t opened things up. I think at the same time that you have got to recognise that investment in higher education is a terrific investment for life. We are not talking about people from less well off backgrounds paying. We want to be needs blind in our access. What we are saying however is that it is pretty absurd when people have paid through the nose for secondary education for them to object, as some have done at independent schools , to making a larger contribution than they do at present to higher education.

Boulton : Oxford wants to be an elite university. . .

Patten : And everybody else should want it to be. If you are talking about Arsenal or Chelsea, nobody doubts that they should be world class and that they deserve lots of support.    

Boulton : Unless they come from Manchester. The point is that if Oxford is an elite, that would cut against, to a certain extent this goal of having50% of people going into tertiary education wouldn’t it because everybody would get a sort of B class education unless they went to Oxford, Cambridge . .

Patten : No I think there are different sorts of tertiary education. In America they are much more explicit about it. Community colleges, State Universities and Ivy League Universities. I think there are wonderful courses, for example two year foundation courses done by what used to be FE or HE colleges which are now universities. I think what should matter is how well you do your particular job. You shouldn’t insist that everybody does the same. Not every university can provide world class research.

Boulton : Can’t have you here of course without bringing up your time as Tory Party Chairman, we all remember the tax double whammy.

Patten : We won.

Boulton : You won exactly. But you won by using dirty tricks. Is that the way to win elections?

Patten : No we didn’t win by using dirty tricks, we won by . . .

Boulton : A powerful campaign.

Patten : A tough campaign and we campaigned on first of all John Major’s decency and the fact the John Major had the benefit of the doubt. We won by stressing that we thought the Labour Party would raise taxes and we won by arguing that Major was better than his . .

Boulton : So do you detect dirty tricks being used by either side at this stage?

Unacceptable dirty tricks?

Patten : Well my own view is that whenever Alistair Campbell is on the scene watch out.

Boulton : So you think he must be behind these posters, or things in the newspapers, allegedly smears about black Wednesday and the rest of it?

Patten : Well I don’t think he is a nun.

Boulton : You don’t think he is a nun. And do you think the election is lost already for the Conservatives?

Patten : No. I think that the Conservative Party can win.

Boulton : Is it a Conservative Party you would back given it’s views on Europe?

Patten :  I will be voting conservative at the next election, no I won’t because I’m now in House of Lords!

Boulton : You have got a vote now.

Patten : That’s alright. Well I will still be. I don’t know enough about my constitutional obligations. I think that it is an interesting political situation because I think there is a lot of bad feeling about Mr. Blair and the government. I think there is a lot of disenchantment. But there isn’t yet enough enthusiasm for the Conservative Party and I think that the Conservative Party have to demonstrate between now and the 5th May or whenever the election is, it has to demonstrate that it could form a credible government and I very much hope that Michael Howard and Oliver Letwin and others will be able to do that.

Boulton : So if they were elected you would immediately then campaign against them on the European referendum?

Patten : Of course.

Boulton : Chris Patten  thank you very much.