Press Office

Aired: Sunday, 21 November, 2004 10:00
SUNDAY WITH ADAM BOULTON, SKY NEWS

  21st November 2004

 

Interview with Berti Ahern, Irish Prime Minister

 

Any excerpts used to be attributed to Sky News’ ‘Sunday With Adam Boulton’

programme.

Boulton : What is the cost in not finally getting devolved government working?

Ahern : Well in terms of Northern Ireland, not to mention East/West relationships, it is never a good thing to have institutions that are not working in a democracy. To have people elected to an assembly every 12 months that is never met. To have a system of an executive to deal with the everyday issues of Northern Ireland that hasn’t been met. That is not a good thing and we want to engage fairly and honestly on the basis of trust on the North/South basis, and all of these things are always on a wing and a prayer when there are no institutions there and you are always hoping that nothing goes wrong. I don’t think that will happen, I don’t think anybody wants it to happen. All parties have engaged and both Prime Minister Blair and I very much appreciate their engagement.

Boulton : If it does go according to plan we are going to have a Sinn Fein deputy  first minister, certainly Sinn Fein ministers in the north. At that point would you have to say, hypothetically in a coalition or working within government, that I would be prepared to work with Sinn Fein in the South?

Ahern : We set down conditions in 2001 about participation with a government in the South. I did this as leader of my party. If you had seen an end par militarism, if you had seen an end to arms , the end of the criminality that is surrounded by par militarism, then if all these things had stopped then you are in a different position. Hopefully we will get to that point, where we all have to . . .

Boulton : So at that point if division came in, that would be when you started thinking of them as a political force?

Ahern : Yes, and I think that every political party in the South would have to re-appraise there position and certainly as a party leader I will do that as well once we have ended these things. The history is that a lot of parties in the South of Ireland have had their own pasts linked to movements, and I think that when it comes to a position that is clear that, when the International Monitoring Commission is declared, then you are into a new position.

Boulton :  And that symbolic decision, there is talks of clerics being allowed to see the possibility of a photograph, although it wouldn’t necessarily be published . . . . . that is crucial do you think?

Ahern : Yes, I think all we are trying to do is give trust and confidence. Where the people of Northern Ireland can believe that they are definitively on a new road. That we are on a road that is away from that very difficult past, and that collectively all parties from different democratic positions can move on from that. That will be the day that I will be very happy, and that is not from an interference point of view, or a pressure point of view, but it will be the end of a past that has been full of hardship and trauma and that has broken all the normality that you would get in a society. If we can get to the other side of that line, that is what Prime Minister Blair and I have been trying to do. We have succeeded in enormous ways but that last bit which sees the institutions working is the bit we haven’t been able to do in a constructive way and a permanent way.

Boulton : What about yourself? Ten years this week you are celebrating as party leader, two election victories behind you. Are you like Tony Blair, one more election to fight and then that will be enough?

Ahern : I have said that I will stay in politics until I am 60. It all depends on whether I fight two elections or one election. Realistically it is one election as leader. I will stay in elected public life, if the people have me until I am 60. It has been a great ten years for me, it has been a great 27 years in parliament.

Boulton : Do you understand the politics in saying I will fight the next election but not the one after that, what does a leader in office get out of saying that?

Ahern : I have been here longer now than Sean Lemass. In a consecutive period in office I have now been here longer than anyone since de-Valera, unfortunately that was a while ago. But the body can take so much and I have a lot of energy but I have said that politics ends at 60. Our election isn’t until 2007 so a five year term brings me to the other side of 60.

Boulton :  And you couldn’t be derailed by the constitutional referendum, you negotiated it are you sure you are going to get it past the Irish people?

Ahern : I think the constitution is enormously positive for Europe. It is positive bringing fundamental rights  . . . .

Boulton : You had a little difficulty with referendums on Europe before.

Ahern : We did but it was on the Nice Treaty which unfortunately had very little substance in it. It was kind of the left over from the Amsterdam Treaty, it was very hard to get a life and soul in the Nice Treaty. I think the constitution is different, without going through all of the things, it brings clarity and order to the European Treaties. It is very helpful for workers and equality, and for the rights of people. I think all of those things are very positive so I think it is unlike the other treaties

Boulton : Northern Irelands referendum

Ahern : We haven’t decided but we have already started a debate in our forum for Europe, which is not just political but also speaks with other groups who would be for and against European issues, so that debate has started. We will engage very actively in it from January onwards and then later on next year we will decide. We are determined that it is debated properly and that people are aware what is in it so that we don’t get caught, as we have done previously of having a referendum about it and people say what is it about? We want sure that everybody is clear of the issues.

Boulton : There are going to be nine or ten referendums one of which is in the UK. Do you think that there is any chance that all will say yes, thumbs up to Europe.

Ahern : Naturally because I negotiated it I want to see that more than most. The Parliamentary ratifications have commenced. Discussions in Denmark, who also had problems, back in 1992, the poll there is very strong in favour. I think the indication is that in the new countries the polls are very strong. Spain has their referendum in springtime.  So early indicators. .

Boulton : What about here? UK it is not going to happen is it?

Ahern : Well you are going to have a referendum. You know my view about it.  I think the UK do enormously well out of Europe and you play a huge role in Europe. But there are no fears, any concerns that the British political system had we dealt with in the Irish presidency on behalf of the UK. There were about four or five issues and the UK came out of them 100% clear. So, I can’t see what the difficulty is.

Boulton : If it does happen, there is a new job, there is the President of  the Council of Ministers, a lot of people have said you are the man for that job. Does it tempt you at all?

Ahern : That is for another day.

Boulton : Bertie Ahern thank you very much.