Press Office

Aired: Sunday, 14 November, 2004 10:6
Sunday With Adam Boulton

14^th November 2004

Interview with Geoff Hoon, MP,  Labour Defence Secretary

Adam Boulton :  It is always a poignant time Remembrance Sunday, remembering those who have given up their lives for their country in the armed forces, particularly poignant I imagine when there are troops in the field not just in Iraq but so recently in the Ivory Coast as well. 

Geoff Hoon : That’s right and obviously all our thoughts today are concentrated on the families, particularly those who very recently have lost loved ones.

Adam Boulton : It has become a topic of political controversy. We had wreath laying in Downing Street this week with one member of that group saying that he wanted to slit your throat. How did you feel when you heard that?

Geoff Hoon : Inevitably these events in Iraq have generated huge passion and in some cases I recognize anger. But at the same time when I both meet serving members of the armed forces and indeed their families, they are united by commitment and a determination to carry through their professional responsibilities. And we, I believe, have the best armed forces in the world, I recognize at some cost sometimes both to them and their families. But today is an occasion that allows us to remember the sacrifice that some made.

Adam Boulton : There are conflicts, the Second World War being an example where the whole nation unites behind the effort. Iraq has not been one of those which must make it much more difficult for a politician when according to public opinion polls you have 50% of the population thinking that this war was wrong.

Geoff Hoon : Although you say that about the second world war, and that is how I grew up, my father volunteered to fight in the Second World War and I am extremely proud of him, but please remember at the time there was great controversy. There was probably about as much controversy about our involvement at the start of the Second World War as there has been in relation to Iraq. Many members of parliament at the start of the Second World War were opposed to it. Not a view I would have taken I hope, not a view that my father took. But nevertheless there was that kind of debate at the time.

Adam Boulton : But once it started there was that threat of invasion whereas with time it appears that justifications of the danger posed by Iraq have actually dissipated.

Geoff Hoon : I’m not sure if I agree with that point because the most recent report by the survey group that has been looking at the situation immediately before the war in Iraq demonstrates that actually Sadam Hussein was in multiple breach of UN resolutions and was certainly developing ever longer ranging missiles well beyond the missile range that he was permitted under UN resolution. Why was he doing that other to threaten the rest of the world?

Adam Boulton : So you believe that that threat to British troops in Cyprus for example really was there?

Geoff Hoon : What I am saying is that we know from this report that he had this ambition to develop not only chemical weapons but also to put them on the top of war heads capable of reaching ever longer distances.

Adam Boulton : An ambition is not a clear and present danger though is it?

Geoff Hoon : An ambition is something that we must have regard to and I think that what also is important is that we look at the world in the post September 11^th 2001 prism. We had to look around at the kind of threats there were and everyone accepts that we were badly taken by surprise by an organization that was based as far away as Afghanistan, a country that frankly we had taken our eye off and that that organization was capable of delivering such a devastating threat in New York, Washington, over Philadelphia. That means that we had an obligation.

Adam Boulton : There was that link to Afghanistan but there was not link to Sadam Hussein though was there?

Geoff Hoon : But what it meant was that we had to look hard at the kinds of threats that there were around the world. The intelligence picture at the time was consistent; all countries were united in believing that not only did Sadam Hussein have an ambition, but had the ability to deliver chemical weapons. In those circumstances I think we were right, in the interest of the British people and the wider world, to say that this is someone we have to deal with.         

Adam Boulton : It does mean in a sense that the armed forces are being used politically the way that they weren’t before because a political decision is taken. There is a country, there is a danger, there is a country where pre-emptive action may be appropriate. Then it follows to say to service men and women go and risk your lives in that area.

Geoff Hoon :  It has been a basic principle of our constitution for several hundred years, that the ultimate decision of the use of our armed forces lies with the elected political leadership. It is absolutely fundamental in how we do things.

Adam Boulton : But it is much more of a judgment call now if you have a pre-emptive notion on the use of force though isn’t it?

Geoff Hoon : I don’t believe so, I think it is just the same kind of decision that we had to take in the past. In the Second World War we actually declared war because of the invasion of Poland.  That was the specific reason. I accept and I am not disguising the fact that some people realised then that after Poland may come a threat to the United Kingdom, I’m not trying to suggest that we were not alive to the treat that Adolf Hitler posed to the United Kingdom. But the specific reason was the invasion of Poland.

Adam Boulton : But in the past there has been this notion of alliances and Poland was an ally and that is why we went to it’s defence. That was the principle for NATO until it changed its charter that basically you were in a defensive alliance. Now we have, I certainly had it very clear in the White House at the end of last week, both George Bush and Tony Blair talking about democracies, freedom and wanting to support governments that are democratic and believing that only governments that are democratic are part of our security. That would point to more interventions around the world to come would it not?

Geoff Hoon : But I think that is because the world has changed. The most obvious way in which it has changed is in the nature of the job that you and your colleagues do in the media. Now you are able to report live and in real time what is happening in places like East Timor, Sierra Leone and most recently the Ivory Coast. Not very many years ago that would not have been possible.

Adam Boulton : What I am saying is that I am not misunderstanding the implication of needing democracy will lead to more military interventions.

Geoff Hoon : But globalization has produced globalization for terrorist organizations and other threats to our safety and security.  I think what both the President and the Prime Minister are saying is that democracy is a greater guarantee that those threats, wherever they arise in the world,  whether they arise in Afghanistan or Iraq, are much more likely to dissipate if those countries are governed by democratic institutions. I have been in Afghanistan this week and seeing television pictures of people queing for hours and hours, some of them at personal risk, was a remarkable testament to the power of democracy. A power that we believe can prevent those threats from arising in the future.

Adam Boulton : But it puts us in a different era, as an example take Saudi Arabia. The old policy was well Saudi Arabia certainly were not democratic but it was well dispose towards us. It had a great deal of oil therefore it is a strategic ally. As I understand it, it is no longer viewed the same way at least at a political level.

Geoff Hoon : It is certainly viewed as a strategic ally but what I think is changing in the Middle East generally is that there is a greater recognition of the importance of democracy. Five years ago I was a Foreign Office minister with responsibility for places like Bahrain which is only just emerging from a period where they were regularly criticized by human rights organizations. Now there is pretty much a democracy in Bahrain and that kind of feeling is affecting a number of other countries including Saudi Arabia.

Adam Boulton : But in order to support that it could mean troops in Iran or something like that?

Geoff Hoon : I do not accept that no. And I don’t think we are anywhere near there. What I think we are seeing though and  is consistant with what the Prime Minister and President are saying is a much greater recognition of the inter-dependence of the world, and that we need to use not only military muscle when it is needed, but actually political and diplomatic means as we did with Libya in order to try and resolve threats.

Adam Boulton : Now Fallujah. The Americans seem to think that that operation is coming to an end,  with the Black Watch at the rear obviously supporting them, is that how you understand it?

Geoff Hoon : That seems to be the position. I think there seems to still be some pockets of resistance as I understand it and they will have to be dealt with. But certainly this does appear to be an operation that has in military sense gone very well.   

Adam Boulton : The war itself went very well in a military sense but it didn’t stop the insurgency. How do you stop the insurgency simply returning after the military battle has been won?

Geoff Hoon : I accept that there is no military solution that will last in the sense that there are determined fanatics, foreign fighters, supporters of Sadam Hussein who will continue to kill innocent people where they can. What we are seeing though with the Iraqi government is a combination of both military steps where needed but crucially reaching out . . . . . . . . . . . . particularly to the Sunni community.

Adam Boulton : But if that is the case then what was the point in flattening Fallujah in the first place?

Geoff Hoon : Well because what Prime Minister Allawi has been doing in Iraq, is approaching the Sunni community, approaching those who are prepared to participate in a constitutional, democratic process and say simply this, ‘lay down your arms and there is the possibility that you and we can be involved in a common effort to rebuild our country’.

Adam Boulton : But they haven’t done that so . . .

Geoff Hoon : Well some have not done that and what I think is important is to separate out . . .

Adam Boulton : Has anyone surrendered?

Geoff Hoon : Some have surrendered yes but I think it is important to separate out those people, many of whom are decent citizens of places like Fallujah, who simply want an end to the violence. Who have been intimidated by fanatics, by terrorists, by foreign fighters, they want them gone. Now, that is the purpose of the military operations. To deal with those kinds of threats to the Iraqi people and to recognize that ultimately a political, constitutional, democratic settlement in Iraq is for the Iraqi people.

Adam Boulton :  Now the Black watch you said would be definitely home by Christmas but if more offensive operations are needed presumably you would be willing to commit other British troops in the same way?

Geoff Hoon : We have always said that we will review the numbers and activity of British forces according to the circumstances. But, this particular operation was necessary in order to create the conditions for those democratic elections to take place in January. We are still committed to that,  committed to that timetable. We believe that rather like Afghanistan,  that will be a huge change in the atmosphere in Iraq.

Adam Boulton : How long are you planning on having significant numbers og British troops in Iraq for?

Geoff Hoon : Well I said before, and I will repeat it that I do not want British troops there a day longer than is necessary. But, we have a job to do. That job is to assist Iraq and it’s people, to reconstruction, to help build a democratic society to a country so it can play a proper part in the international community.

Adam Boulton : Where do you stand on this re-visiting of plans to rationalize the Scottish regiments. I mean it appeared that in spite of the political hits that were taken that General Sir Michael Jackson had a plan to integrate the various regiments and for various political spin reasons, it then came up that wouldn’t it be nice to save the Black Watch. Is that fair?

Geoff Hoon : I made an announcement in principle last July of the way forward which is a reorganization of the structure of the army, but recognizing the great traditions associated with our regiments. General Jackson said to me and I agree that it was important that he was able to consult  the various elements of the army affected. He is doing that. Eventually there will be a recommendation by the army board which I know will carry the full weight of the army with it.

Adam Boulton : But is there pressure coming from Number 10 to do more for the Black Watch because they’re the ones in the news at the moment?

Geoff Hoon : Obviously we all great sensitivity towards the Black Watch currently in operations, but I emphasize is that what we want to find is a way of reorganizing the structure for the 21^st Century to allow us to have effective, deployable services at the same time recognizing the great tradition that is associated with our regiment.

Adam Boulton : If as was planned, this royal Scottish regiment comes about, how much identity will there be for the Black Watch within that if indeed it goes ahead. Will they keep their own tartan, their own badges etc.

Geoff Hoon : I don’t want to get into the conclusions before the army board have made a recommendation. But it is important to preserve that identity for our great regiments, something that is vitally important to the United Kingdom and it’s army.

Adam Boulton : There has also been an internal report about the difficulties of recruitment at the moment, the quality of the soldiers and also people seeing the real risks they run. Do you think it is now time to have another defence review?  It does seem an extraordinary world where Britain is trying to help America, yet America is spending so much more of it’s wealth on defence in comparison to us, with the rest of the Europeans falling behind.

Geoff Hoon : Well actually, recruitment to the army and the other services is going very well. It has always been the case in the past that when we have had a healthy economy and lots of other opportunities for people it has actually been difficult to recruit people. At the moment we have both a very successful economy and very successful recruitment so that actually is not a problem.

Adam Boulton : Finally from the very serious to the rather less so, the resignation or sacking of Boris Johnson. Do you think it was the right thing to sack him over this personal matter?

Geoff Hoon : Well I don’t know anything of the details but it does look like something of an over-reaction by the leader of the Conservative Party.

Adam Boulton : Geoff Hoon thank you very much.