Press Office

Aired: Sunday, 19 October, 2003 10:00
Sky News' Sunday with Adam Boulton

Boulton:     It does seem that although Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, tried very hard last week he hasn’t managed to bridge this gap.  That if this ordination goes ahead then churches particularly in the third world will break away.

Butler:    I think he has gained some time but on November 2nd if the ordination goes ahead we will be at a crisis point although the Archbishops have agreed to set up a commission and keep talking to each other for the next year so hopefully there won’t be over reaction even in six weeks time.

Boulton:    Would your appeal be to the American cleric involved, Jean Robinson, to actually withdraw, say I don’t want to be bishop?

Butler:    Well, undoubtedly they know very clearly the repercussions of going ahead and they are very serious in terms of church unity both in America and Britain but around the globe.  On the other hand of course for some Christians this is a matter of principal, a matter of human rights, they feel that it is an inevitable step that the church will have to make and if not now then in a few years time so we may as well have the real argument now.  I think that is the position of a lot of the American churches.

Boulton:     Is that what you feel?

Butler:     I think it is sad that it has happened so swiftly.  There have been major changes in this country in terms of the public attitude towards homosexuality in the last decade.  I mean, last Sunday there was a poll which showed that over 50% of church goers feel that active homosexual priests shouldn’t be barred from ordination.  That’s a massive change but things don’t change as rapidly as that in Africa or around the globe and the communion really does need more time. 

Boulton:    In this country, of course, there was a compromise in the diocese of Reading where Cannon Geoffrey John actually stood back at the end in the interest of church unity now he works with you now, I understand. 

Butler:     Yes he does.

Boulton:     So you don’t see any problem in having gay men, or indeed gay women veritably involved in the church?

Butler:     Certainly there was no problem with Geoffrey John because he is homosexual and of course the church has no problems with people of homosexual orientation but Geoffrey John was celibate.  In other words he wasn’t involved in active sexual relationships.

Boulton:    This man in America isn’t, he lives with another man.

Butler:     That’s right and so it is a different situation.  So Geoffrey John was actually qualified to be a bishop but even so, once his appointment was announced there was such a repercussion in the diocese of Oxford and elsewhere that he was persuaded to step down.

Boulton:     You say the church has no problem but that involves one particular interpretation of the bible and the word of God doesn’t it?  I mean, there are many others who could quote passages from of the bible which seem to, particularly the Old Testament, seem to say fairly explicitly that homosexuality is a sin.

Butler:    Homosexuality the word is used almost in short cut.  I don’t think there is a problem with homosexual orientation even with some of the fiercest critics of homosexual practice -

Boulton:      But strictly by the word of scripture there is a problem isn’t there?

Butler:    The word of scripture is about men performing unnatural acts with other men so it is not so much as sexual orientation, it’s what they do that the bible is very fierce about and even of that, of course, there are different interpretations.

Boulton:     And what’s your personal feeling about that?  You said that Cannon Geoffrey John is celibate therefore it is not a problem for you?

Butler:   I think we very firmly want to say in the Church of England that people of a homosexual orientation, men or women, are very much welcome as full members of the church including ordained members of the church.  What the house of bishops has said is nevertheless, it is not open for clergy to engage in homosexual practice but that is not to say that they cannot be homosexual orientated.

Boulton:    So taking that view, what is wrong with simply saying to the churches in Africa, look, it’s not our problem if you are backward.  You are members of this communion therefore you had better get in line, this is the way we are going.

Butler:     It is not a question of backward, it’s a question of different cultures.  I mean, for example, we had major problems over the question of polygamy a couple of decades a go in Africa.  Several Lambeth conferences discussed this and came to the conclusion that this is a matter for the African bishops, we trust them to handle their cultural situation in a sensitive way linking in the gospel to their culture.  Now, I think what I would be saying to them is look, trust the western bishops in the same kind of way to handle this issue of homosexuality in our culture which is very different to the African culture  -

Boulton:     But there is not much chance that is going to happen when you have got Nigerian bishops saying this could lead to bloodshed, demonstrations on the streets?

Butler:   Well, I agree and therefore each bishop has to handle the issue within our own culture and it is different in Nigeria to south London but I think we have got to trust one another that as faithful Christians we will do our best to do that.

Boulton:     Splits like this do seem to point to a weakness in the Church of England if you, say, compared it with the Catholic church which has been very austere about matters of contraception, homosexuality, women priests and the rest.  That actually seems to have helped to stop members leaving, even get new recruits?

Butler:     Well, they have major problems about recruiting clergy but I wouldn’t want to compare.  We have a different culture.  The great thing about the Church of England is we do embrace all culture all over the world as does the Roman Catholic church, but we also embrace a wide range of spiritual traditions from protestant right through to catholic and also we have a culture of openness.  We discuss these things openly so transparency has always been our style now that is true, it means we have our arguments in public and that looks divisive.  On the other hand, people don’t feel that they are being let down, that we’re being hypocritical.

Boulton:     What do you feel about the creation of saints in this day and age by the Catholic Church?  Someone who has been alive in our lifetime, Mother Theresa now being beatified.  What does that mean?

Butler:      We all need our heroes you know, David Beckham is a saint to an awful lot of young men in this country -

Boulton:    - As I understand it a saint is closer to God than the rest of us.

Butler:    Well, we do need our heroes and I think it has been part of the catholic tradition to be able to point to somebody in our time and say now look, if she could do it, it is open to the rest of us if we try and really pray for God’s grace.  I can see why they are doing it although in this particular case it has been fast-tracked.

Boulton:     I think there were more than 400 saints created by this pope.

Butler:   He obviously goes a deal for saints, this pope.  It is very much part of his own spirituality I think.

Boulton:   So in your church will you be adopting any of these?

Butler:    I don’t think we do that. We have inherited the saints that we had, the kind of red letter saints when we became Church of England and spilt away from Rome but we haven’t been making our own saints since then but we’ve got some great heroes.

Boulton:     Even if someone sorts out this gay row?  You won’t make them a saint.

Butler:   If Rowan Williams is able to do that he is a saintly figure, I think I could agree with that and a very intelligent figure.