Press Office

Aired: Sunday, 6 May, 2007 10:00
Sunday Live with Adam Boulton

Boulton:          So what are you going to do with the rest of your life?

 

Falconer:        I’m concentrating on the Ministry of Justice which is starting on Wednesday.  It brings together a number of elements in the justice system; prisons, probation, courts, puts them into a new ministry and it’s being done in order to add value so that you get better results for the public in terms of public protection and reducing re-offending, the things that really matter.

 

Boulton:          It does look a bit like rather belated change, I mean, we’ve had ten years of government.  If the Home Office wasn’t working shouldn’t it have been spotted earlier?

 

Falconer:        You can’t do everything at once, as you go through a period of government you learn things -

 

Boulton:          - This hasn’t been in any manifesto though, you haven’t even been planning to do this -

 

Falconer:        - The world has changed, indeed one of the things about the world which changed was the much, much greater focus on security.  I’m sure in the interests of the public this is the right thing to do because it will improve outcomes in the criminal justice and the wider justice system as well. 

 

Boulton:          The effect of the change is we’ve got a new Ministry for Justice and both you and John Reid have said publicly that that Minister for Justice ought to be in the House of Commons.  That puts you out of a job doesn’t it?

 

Falconer:        There may come a time in the future that the job needs to be done in the commons, I’m doing the job on Wednesday and I’m concentrating on making the thing work.  It’s for the Prime Minister to decide when and if the job goes to the commons -

 

Boulton:          - Are you saying you would still to carry on being the Minister for Justice when the new Prime Minister, presumably Gordon Brown, is in place?

 

Falconer:        Yes I would like to go on as long as I can be effective in delivering something that works for the public.

 

Boulton:          And you do not believe that this has to be done by a minister accountable to the commons?

 

Falconer:        I don’t believe that it does.  A time will come no doubt in the future but I don’t believe now it does.

 

Boulton:          So you’re not at this junction preparing for retirement because I have to say, your name – most of the speculative lists about who Gordon Brown is going to drop - 

 

Falconer:        - I’m not preparing for retirement, I am concentrating as I said on the job of getting the Ministry of Justice up and running and also making sure it delivers results.

 

Boulton:          Because it is being suggested, again quite widely, that what’s going to happen is that you are going to do John Reid’s dirty work for him, that you are going to announce that more than three thousand convicts are going to be released early from prison because of prison overcrowding and then you’ll conveniently leave the government so you’ll take that bad smell with you.  Is there any truth in that?

 

Falconer:        I have read those same stories and there is no truth in that.  I am not going to comment on the details of prison policy which only becomes my responsibility on 9th May but the stories in today’s paper and previous papers saying I am plotting to release three thousand prisoners when I take over is wrong.

 

Boulton:          So, let’s get this clear.  You are not going to announce early releases because of prison overcrowding in the next few weeks?

 

Falconer:        I am not going to announce early releases because of prison overcrowding.

 

Boulton:          Any early releases?

 

Falconer:        Any early releases, no.

 

Boulton:          So, it’s not just the number, it is simply wrong?

 

Falconer:        It is simply wrong.

 

Boulton:          Ok, what are you going to do about prison overcrowding?

 

Falconer:        As I say, I am not going to make detailed statements about prison policy until it becomes my responsibility on 9th May but because of the persistent speculation which you’ve put to me and which has been in the newspapers, I think it’s right to deny those.

 

Boulton:          Also being reported is that there isn’t going to be a Blairite candidate against Gordon Brown, we know that Charles Clarke has pulled out, we know that John Reid has pulled out and now John Hutton is saying that he has pulled out.  So, we can assume can we that the next Prime Minister and Labour leader is going to be Gordon Brown?

 

Falconer:        Yes, that would be my judgment that Gordon Brown will be the next leader of the Labour party.

 

Boulton:          Do you think it is a pity that he is getting it without a proper contest?

 

Falconer:        No, I think you can’t create a contest when there is no will for a contest.  Gordon Brown is a towering figure, as I have said before, in the Labour party.  Those other people who might at an earlier stage thought of running have decided not to because of Gordon’s pre-eminent position, I don’t think that is bad for the party, I don’t think it’s right to have a contest when there is no appetite for one.

 

Boulton:          Do you think that Gordon Brown can lead the party to victory in the next election when you look at the local election results?

 

Falconer:        Without doubt.  I think it was not a good series of results for us on Thursday -

 

Boulton:          - Springboard for victory according to your friend Tony Blair.

 

Falconer:        Well, we lost councilors, 500 council seats lost and the SNP are now the single biggest party in the Scottish parliament but I don’t think there has been a government in history that hasn’t had bad results at mid term.  The ones that go on to win the subsequent general elections are those who listen.  We aren’t nearly in as bad a position as previous governments and indeed Neil Kinnock was winning significant results in local elections in the 80’s a still lost.

 

Boulton:          Gordon Brown has been at the heart of new Labour, if people are going to be fed up with new Labour they are going to be fed up with him before he even gets in the job.

 

Falconer:        I don’t think that at all is the message from the local elections.  In Scotland two thirds, over two thirds of the people elected are in favour of the union and -

 

Boulton:          - Exactly!  Tories, Liberal Democrats and others -

 

Falconer:        - The devolution settlement is one we put in place that a vast majority s of voters supported.  Yes, from time to time the public are going to say we don’t like what you are doing, we’ve got to listen.  I think the critical thing is we have got to continue to make it clear that we are a party that stands for the many; the middle class, the working class, for those who are succeeding and those who are dispossessed.

 

Boulton:          Do you think you have any moral authority to resist Alex Salmond becoming in the first minister bearing in mind he clearly got more votes than anyone else?

 

Falconer:        He got 32% of the vote.  The first part of the story is that he has got to try to build the coalition and he -

 

Boulton:          - But 32% is more than you got, yes?

 

Falconer:        We got 32% as well but he got marginally more with 32.9 and we got 32.2 or something - 

 

Boulton:          - Exactly, that was in the first round and in the other one he got 31% and you got 29% so clearly -

 

Falconer:        - He beat us, he has got more votes than us but when you are in the Scottish Parliament what you have got to do is seek to build a coalition -

 

Boulton:          - So you think it would be fair, a just outcome if he didn’t become first minister?

 

Falconer:        The first stage is he, on behalf of the Scottish National Party, has got to see if he can build a coalition and that’s for him with others to see if they can agree and if they can’t agree then -

 

Boulton:          - You’re also a lawyer of course.  Would you advise your clients the Scottish Labour Party to go to the courts to try and overturn a result up there?

 

Falconer:        I don’t know what the detail of any legal challenge is.

 

Boulton:          Well, the principal of it?

 

Falconer:        No doubt everybody has got to look at it in relation to individual seats and see what the position is.  I think what is much more important than the question of legal challenges is that you look closely to see what happened -

 

Boulton:          - But what we could get is weeks, if not months, of paralysis with this race in Cunningham North having to be re-run.  It’s the Labour party pushing on this one.  Would you advise the Labour Party to -

 

Falconer:        - I have no idea about the detail of what happened in Cunningham North.  It’s the detail - 

 

Boulton:          - I’m talking about the principal though.

 

Falconer:        As far as I am aware there is no basis for a challenge on principal -

 

Boulton:          - I mean the principal of launching any challenge at all.

 

Falconer:        But I don’t know what happened in Cunningham North, I don’t know what the detail of that is -

 

Boulton:          - Well, it was a narrow victory by the SNP candidate -

 

Falconer:        - I don’t know what the particular detail is of individual papers -

 

Boulton:          - Surely a principal as to whether you start going to the courts, questioning the result with all the delay and uncertainty that will bring or whether you do what party I have to say were saying they were going to do on Friday morning, which is accept how the result stands and then move forward from there.  It now seems Labour is -

 

Falconer:        Adam, I don’t know what happened, I don’t know if there is something special about Cunningham North.  For the point of view of the electorate it is a far better we get to a point where we can move forward and -

 

Boulton:          - So don’t do it basically?

 

Falconer:        I think the right thing to do is to look at the bigger picture rather than the smaller picture.

 

Boulton:          Now, you are also, today I think, giving a speech touching on this next question of multi –culturalism and the wearing of veils in schools and elsewhere.  What are you basically saying on that?

 

Falconer:        I am going to the National Association of Head Teachers conference this afternoon and I am backing them in a common sense approach to running their schools.  It’s being done in the context of human rights and I am saying human rights doesn’t in any way stop you running your school effectively.  Uniform is an example where issues have been raised and brought before the courts.  If you have got a sensible policy don’t be worried or intimidated by people saying, oh it’s offending my human rights that I can’t wear this or that -

 

Boulton:          - So for example if you want to say no veils and anyone who wears veils will be excluded from this school you’re saying it’s ok to say that?

 

Falconer:        I am saying have a sensible policy for your area, consult upon it and if the right conclusion is there is a uniform policy that doesn’t allow pupils to wear a particular sort of item of clothing or does, as long as you have properly reflected in a sensible way the concerns and the make up of your school you’re not going to be challenged in court.  And that will mean, as you say, being able to say no to the veil in certain cases.

 

Boulton:          And it will mean a minority will effectively feel that their rights have been taken away?

 

Falconer:        If it is done in a proper way and it reflects the needs of the school then there’s nothing wrong with that.

 

Boulton:          Won’t that possibly result in ghettoisation is the sense that Muslim children or their parents may decide that they won’t send their children to that school because it has a particular policy so there will be a concentration rather than a proper mixing?

 

Falconer:        No, I think the essential message is decide what your uniform policy is by reference to the needs of the area you are serving as a school.  If it led to ghettoisation in a particular place then it wouldn’t be a sensible policy but in the vast majority of cases, it won’t.

 

Boulton:          And finally, it is Tony Blair’s 54th birthday today.  Are you planning on celebrating that?

 

Falconer:        I wish him very many happy returns for the day but I am not seeing him today.

 

Boulton:          Other than being a year older has he got much to celebrate do you think?

 

Falconer:        Yes, he has been Prime Minister for ten years, he has led Labour to three election victories and in very, very many respects he has changed our country for the better.   He has got a lot to celebrate.

Boulton:          What are the best things he has done?

 

Falconer:        A thriving economy for the last ten years, improved the public service, changed attitudes in the country so that everybody has a real opportunity to succeed.  It has been a remarkable and effective ten years and I hope there is another ten years for Labour after on which we can build.

Boulton:          Do you regret that he’s going now?

 

Falconer:        There comes a time in the affairs of men when you have got to move on I think.

Boulton:          So it’s the right thing to do to go now?

 

Falconer:        I think it’s probably the right thing to do to go now.