Press Office

Aired: Sunday, 18 March, 2007 10:00
Sunday Live with Adam Boulton

18th March 2007

Interview with political analyst and brother of South African President, Moeletsi Mbeki.

All excerpts to be attributed to Sky News’ ‘Sunday Live with Adam Boulton.’.  

Boulton: Mr. Mbeki, thank you very much indeed for being with us.  It seems that things have been going from bad to worse in Zimbabwe for a very long time given that, why in your view is Robert Mugabe still there and still in control?

Mbeki:  Well it goes down to one reason; it’s the use of force.  Mugabe is prepared to use force, any amount of force, he’s prepared to kill the opposition, he’s prepared to do anything that he considers necessary to stay in power, so that’s why he’s still in power.  He’s prepared to rig the elections which he does when they are held, so those are the reasons why Mugabe is still in power, and as you saw the beating of the leader of the opposition and his other leaders of the opposition during the last few days.

Boulton:  Whose job is it to do something about it?  Is it simply a question of waiting for a movement within Zimbabwe?  Should it be neighbouring countries like South Africa that increase pressure?  Should it be old colonialists like Britain?  Should it be global sanctions?  I mean how can something be done about this in your view?

Mbeki:  Well the people who really have leverage on Zimbabwe are the countries that surround Zimbabwe which are Mozambique in the east, South Africa in the South, Botswana in the west and Zambia in the north.  Those are the countries that have leverage because Zimbabwe is a land locked country so they have the ability to bring Mugabe to his senses if they so choose.

Boulton:  And do we have to conclude therefore that they haven’t so chosen hitherto?

Mbeki:  Yes I think we have to conclude that you have to understand the situation in southern Africa.  Southern Africa is the most industralised part of Africa and therefore it has a very huge labour force, working class labour force, wage earners.  What is the new phenomenon we are seeing in southern Africa is that this labour force they are all joining trade unions, many of them are members of trade unions.  Now these trade unions have become politically active and have started forming their own parties, so all the governments in southern Africa are faced with the threat to their power from the trade union movement.  MDC, the Movement for Democratic Change, Morgan Tsvangirai, for example, was the leader of the Zimbabwe Congress of Trade Unions.  In Zambia we saw a trade union setting up a political party which out voted the then President, Kaunda.  So we are seeing in southern Africa the trade unions being the main opposition to the ruling parties and this is really the situation whereby all the countries have a vested interest, all the ruling parties in our region, have a vested interest in ensuring that the opposition does not win in Zimbabwe because they see this as a threat to themselves as well.

Boulton:  And that would apply to Thabo Mbeki as well, the South African President, that effectively he’s worried you would say about the MDC possibly infecting or strengthening a trade union movement within South Africa?

Mbeki:  Well absolutely, the biggest opposition in reality in South Africa to the government is actually the trade unions and they have threatened to form their own party, they have threatened to encourage the Communist party, which is an alliance with the ANC to stand on its own and compete against the NC in the election.  So it’s not just South Africa of course, Mozambique, Botswana all of these countries, Namibia, are faced with the same challenge.

Boulton:  Now I’ve spoken to President Mbeki about the situation in Zimbabwe a number of times and his argument always is first of all that the whole question of land reform is one which affects the whole region and therefore he has sympathy with what Robert Mugabe is trying to do and accepts obviously you need land reform in South Africa and secondly he always says that, you know, Robert Mugabe is a key figure in the liberation struggle, a contemporary of your father and therefore should be respected for that as well.

Mbeki:  Well I don’t think anyone because you are a freedom fighter you should be given a license to brutalise the opposition and to brutalise the population and to destroy your country’s economy.  To be a freedom fighter doesn’t give you that license, it’s not to buy a license in future to brutalise the population. So I don’t think that Mugabe has a license anymore than anyone should have a license to terrorise the population.

Boulton:  But do you think he’s right to deal with the land reform issue?

Mbeki:  Well there’s no land reform in Zimbabwe, what there is, is a confiscation of private property owned by Zimbabwean citizens by a small clique that surrounds Mugabe.  There is no land reform in Zimbabwe.

Boulton:  So given that the situation is deteriorating do you think the time has come now for heavier intervention by South Africa?

Mbeki:  Well as I explained to you, you are very unlikely to get any meaningful intervention by South Africa or other southern African countries, because all of them the trade union inspired political party led by Morgan Tsvangirai is a threat also to them.

Boulton:  So it, is it just allowed to complete its course and go from bad to worse until eventually Mugabe is no longer there?  I mean Morgan Tsvangirai speaking this morning said that he thought that perhaps it was the beginning of the end given the extreme behaviour of Mugabe and the demonstrations on the streets?

Mbeki:  Well I think Morgan Tsvangirai is an optimist.  It is just the beginning of their problems.  Remember Mugabe in the early nineteen-eighties when he was faced with opposition from another leader called Josh Nkomo, he organised the army and killed twenty thousand people in Zimbabwe.  This is only the beginning for Morgan Tsvangirai and if he thinks this is the beginning of the end well I think he is fooling himself.

Boulton:  What about the consequences for South Africa itself?  I think more than a million refugees now coming across the border into South Africa, is that going to reach a level, an unacceptable level, if you like?

Mbeki:  Well according to the government, the South African government’s own estimates there are up to three million illegal immigrants from Zimbabwe.  I think last year they deported, last year alone, they deported about two hundred thousand but those two hundred thousand came back within a week of deportation.  This is one of the problems that you have for the surrounding countries, is the massive flight of population from Zimbabwe into the neighbouring countries.  But as I say they would rather live with that situation than force Mugabe to hold free and fair elections because that really is the solution to Zimbabwe’s problems.

Boulton:  You are extremely gloomy about the situation then that would be your conclusion?

Mbeki:  Well I would say I am realistic about the situation.  I know Mugabe very well; I used to be his supporter.  I know his willingness to use violence, he has an endless appetite for the use of violence and he sees this as a wonderful opportunity for himself, for the use of violence.

Boulton:  There have been suggestions in the western media that he’s gone mad, that he’s disease ridden; he’s got syphilis or anything else like that.  Do you think there’s any truth in that?

Mbeki:  I don’t think so; Mugabe is very rational, he’s very normal.  This is not the first time, in fact MDC is lucky they have only been beaten up by batons.  Thousands of people were shot and killed in southern Zimbabwe in the nineteen-eighties and I was in Zimbabwe when this happened.  So as I point out this is just the beginning.

Boulton:   And how heavily should the situation in Zimbabwe weigh on the conscience of your brother the President Mbeki of South Africa?

Mbeki:  Well I don’t know our government’s view is that Zimbabwe is not their problem; it’s a matter for Zimbabweans to solve their own problems, so I guess it doesn’t weigh that heavily on anyone’s conscience in South Africa.

Boulton:  But should it?

Mbeki:  Well it depends on whose side you are on.  As I pointed out you know our own government is faced with challenges from the trade unions, so if you are faced with that situation I think the priority for any politician is his own power, his own opportunity to stay in power rather than issues of conscience.  So I think in terms of South Africa the issue of how to frustrate the trade unions taking power and challenging the power of the ruling parties is more of a priority than the beating of opposition demonstrators and their leader.

Boulton:  Thank you very much indeed Mr. Mbeki for joining us from Johannesburg this Sunday Live.