Press Office

Aired: Sunday, 10 December, 2006 10:00
Sunday Live with Adam Boulton

Page 1

10th December 2006.

 
Interview with International Development Secretary, Hilary Benn, M.P.

 
All excerpts to be attributed to Sky News’ ‘Sunday Live with Adam Boulton.’.  


Bolton:  Mr Benn, we’ve talked about Darfur many times before, the problem appears to be that it’s not getting any better.

Benn:  Well the security situation is getting worse; we’ve had two hundred thousand people have had to flea their homes in the last six months, about eighty thousand in the last six weeks, most of them in Darfur, some have gone to Chad.  The violence is increasing that’s both on the government side, the rebels and the bandits.  We’ve had six humanitarian workers killed so far this year and two of the African Union peacekeepers and I’m afraid that the peace deal that was negotiated in May, with one of the rebel groups, hasn’t been signed up to by the others and that’s why we need the ceasefire that the Prime Minister’s called for but above all it’s why we need more troops on the ground.

Boulton:  Well I mean David Cameron, who of course visited the region as you have recently, he’s written today is what’s got to happen effectively is that other forces have got to augment the seven thousand African Union forces, you’d agree with that?

Benn:  Well absolutely and that’s why in Addis, three weeks ago, under Kofi Annan’s chairmanship we got an agreement with the government of Sudan that more troops should come in and the first phase, that’s the UN strengthening the African Union Mission, is under way currently, the second phase would provide a lot more support and the third phase would be a joint AU, UN hybrid force which the UN would pay for.  Because the new Force Commander General Aprezi, who I met when I was in El Fasher in October, was very frank.  He pointed to the map of Darfur, he said we’ve got six and a bit thousand soldiers it’s simply not enough, we need more troops.  Now we got agreement in principle from the government of Sudan that this will happen, we’ve now got to get on and make it happen.

 

Boulton:  Have we got the troops?  I mean we hear a lot about over stretch these days?

Benn:  Well they won’t be troops from the UK, because what we agreed in Addis was that it would be a predominately African force with an African force Commander.  That’s what everyone recognises is the right way to go.  There’s been a lack of funding.  Basically three things need to be sorted out, more troops on the ground, secure funding and improve the command of control and that’s why with the right agreement and the UN being prepared to fund, that will deal with the financial difficulties which the African Union Mission has done a very good job in very, very testing circumstances.

Bolton:  The problem is though I mean to a certain extent, the efforts of the troops, the efforts of the aid agencies, the ten billion that Britain’s giving only to Africa which some criticise as it’s all sticking plaster isn’t it?  I mean at route you’ve got a regime in Khartoum, Omar Hassan al-Bashir, which, you know, the Economist says today is one of the nastiest regimes in the world and yet because there’s oil there, because there are strategic interests there, actually the world community isn’t prepared to act against that government.

Benn:  Well the fact that there’s oil there is nothing to do with the fact that the international community has been giving a lot of humanitarian aid, passed a number of resolutions to implement sanctions, to send an international commission of inquiry to refer what’s happened…

Boulton:  No, I understand that but you’ve got a President…

Benn:  …Adam to the International Criminal Court.  But what I was going to say is that you’re right a bigger force will be a bigger and more effective sticking plaster on the problem.  What you require is a political settlement.  Now not withstanding the nature of the regime, the longest running civil war in Africa, between the North and the South of Sudan that claimed two million lives over a generation was brought to an end by a political settlement.  The conflict in the East of the country has just been the subject of a peace agreement, it is possible if the parties put their minds to it, and that includes the rebels as well as the government, to find a political solution to this crisis.

Bolton:  Well see you’ve got a problem when I quote today’s statistics, which I think you’d accept of maybe up to half a million people losing their lives in the Darfur conflict, yet the President says oh, it’s sort of seven or eight thousand.  I mean, there is a need for a reality check surely?

Benn:  Well I think that’s a statement of somebody who’s in denial about what’s been going on.  No one knows for sure how many people have lost their lives in this awful conflict but it’s a lot more than that.  There are two million people living in camps, they’ve had to flea their homes because they’ve been burnt out of them, women and children have been killed, their houses have been destroyed.

Bolton:  I mean would you favour stronger action against the al-Bashir government?

Benn:  I favour effective action to improve the security on the ground and that’s why we’ve been working so hard to get more troops in.  I favour the government of Sudan, the rebel group that did sign in May, and the rebels who didn’t getting round the table to negotiate a peace agreement.  And if then the government , or anybody else doesn’t do what’s needed to be done to make that  happen Adam, then the world community has got to say well there’s a consequence.

Bolton:  I mean the other dimension of this of course is that China, foe example now, has made a strategic alliance with Sudan because it wants its oil.  We know that the Chinese have also apparently supported some kind of intervention, or at least control, in Somalia and yet in reality China is a member of the Security Council, we can’t stand up to China can we?

Benn:  Well it is true that China and Russia abstained on Resolution 1706 which called for a UN peacekeeping force, but China was represented at the meeting in Addis, about three weeks ago, and the Chinese representative said to the government of Sudan, look this deal that is now on offer, which is another way of achieving the same thing, more troops, sort out the finances, better command of control, said to the government of Sudan you should accept this.

Bolton:  But without Chinese support the world community is not going to be able to do much is it?

Benn:  It’s important that we have the support of the whole international community, what I’m describing to you Adam, is what the representative of China said at that meeting.  And Lam Akol, the Sudanese Foreign Minister, who was in the room, realised that the whole of the world was ranged on one side saying this is what you now need to do to try and solve this problem.

Bolton:  More broadly how worried are you about Chinese influence in Africa?  I mean there was a report I think this week by the World Bank saying just as we’ve seen the international efforts to deal with the debt problem, Live Aid, Live Aid and all the rest of it, now China’s moving in and these African countries are becoming indebted in a new way towards China.  I mean that really defeats all the work of the last two decades.

Benn:  Well it is an issue.  China is an increasingly influential world power, it’s got a lot of economic relationships with Africa, it’s buying up raw materials and natural resources.  I think it’s important that countries lend responsibly and that countries borrow responsibly because yes, all of the effort that we’ve rightly put into debt cancellation so that countries can spend their money on getting their children into school and improving healthcare, and we’ve seen real progress since Gleneagles for twenty of the world’s poorest countries every penny they owed in debt sixteen months ago to the IMF and the World Bank and the African Development Bank…

Bolton:  Now they’re getting in debt to the Chinese.

Benn:  has been written off.  Well if they are borrowing irresponsibly then that will be a problem, and I think China understands that as well as looking to Africa for its economic future China has just the same interests, that the rest of the world has, in good governance and peace and stability.  And that’s why I welcome what the Chinese representative had to say to the government of Sudan in the meeting at Addis.

Bolton:  What do you think the impact of this report here, the Iraq Study Group, is going to be on British government strategy in Iraq?

Benn:  Well I think it reflects very much what we have been trying to do which is one, in the end the future of Iraq is in the hands of the Iraqi people and as we pull back, as we increase their capacity to take responsibility for security then that’s what’s got to happen.  Secondly it recognises that the neighbours in the region can either hinder the progress of Iraq towards being a stable democracy, or they can help it, and thirdly, as the Prime Minister made very clear in responding to the Iraq Study Group report, the failure to resolve the problems of the Middle East colours everything.

Bolton:  Do you think victory is really a useful concept anymore when we think about British and American involvement in Iraq?

Benn:  I think it’s about trying to enable Iraq to have a stable and democratic future and compared with the thirty years of trauma and brutalisation and impoverishment that Saddam’s regime brought upon the people of Iraq, they have the means now to move forward because they have an elected government.  Twelve million people went to the polls to elect that government and the Iraq people have got a choice.  Either the sectarian butchers and the suicide bombers are going to be allowed to carry on doing what they’re doing, which is sowing division, or people can rally round, within the country and outside, the elected government.  And that is really the test for the future, can Iraq have a peaceful and stable future.

Bolton:  I mean the test in the sense for the Blair government, of which you’ve been a member, is that in fact when Saddam Hussein was in power there wasn’t this degree of sectarian killing, there wasn’t this effective civil war going on, so in some ways we’ve made the situation worse.

Benn:  I just don’t accept that actually because there was a lot of killing going on when Saddam was in power, as the bodies being uncovered from the desert, people who’d been shot and buried there, proves the differences that there is now an elected government, and if you say to me….

Bolton:  So we’ve made things better would you say that?

Benn:  We’ve made things different, because there is now a chance for the people to build a better future for Iraq through a government they’ve elected.  And if you ask me very frankly, Adam, do I wish that Saddam was still in power the honest answer is no I don’t and I don’t think the people of Iraq think that.  But in parts of the country it’s very grim, it’s very difficult, everybody knows that but the future of Iraq, ultimately, has to rest in the hands of the Iraqis.  They have the means to find a peaceful way forward thorough an elected government and not through violence.

Bolton:  Hilary Benn thank you very much for joining us this Sunday Live.

Page 1

 

9th December 2006.

 

 

Interview with International Development Secretary, Hilary Benn, M.P.

 

 

All excerpts to be attributed to Sky News’ ‘Sunday Live with Adam Boulton.’.  

 

 

Bolton:  Mr Benn, we’ve talked about Darfur many times before, the problem appears to be that it’s not getting any better.

Benn:  Well the security situation is getting worse; we’ve had two hundred thousand people have had to flea their homes in the last six months, about eighty thousand in the last six weeks, most of them in Darfur, some have gone to Chad.  The violence is increasing that’s both on the government side, the rebels and the bandits.  We’ve had six humanitarian workers killed so far this year and two of the African Union peacekeepers and I’m afraid that the peace deal that was negotiated in May, with one of the rebel groups, hasn’t been signed up to by the others and that’s why we need the ceasefire that the Prime Minister’s called for but above all it’s why we need more troops on the ground.

Boulton:  Well I mean David Cameron, who of course visited the region as you have recently, he’s written today is what’s got to happen effectively is that other forces have got to augment the seven thousand African Union forces, you’d agree with that?

Benn:  Well absolutely and that’s why in Addis, three weeks ago, under Kofi Annan’s chairmanship we got an agreement with the government of Sudan that more troops should come in and the first phase, that’s the UN strengthening the African Union Mission, is under way currently, the second phase would provide a lot more support and the third phase would be a joint AU, UN hybrid force which the UN would pay for.  Because the new Force Commander General Aprezi, who I met when I was in El Fasher in October, was very frank.  He pointed to the map of Darfur, he said we’ve got six and a bit thousand soldiers it’s simply not enough, we need more troops.  Now we got agreement in principle from the government of Sudan that this will happen, we’ve now got to get on and make it happen.

 

Boulton:  Have we got the troops?  I mean we hear a lot about over stretch these days?

Benn:  Well they won’t be troops from the UK, because what we agreed in Addis was that it would be a predominately African force with an African force Commander.  That’s what everyone recognises is the right way to go.  There’s been a lack of funding.  Basically three things need to be sorted out, more troops on the ground, secure funding and improve the command of control and that’s why with the right agreement and the UN being prepared to fund, that will deal with the financial difficulties which the African Union Mission has done a very good job in very, very testing circumstances.

Bolton:  The problem is though I mean to a certain extent, the efforts of the troops, the efforts of the aid agencies, the ten billion that Britain’s giving only to Africa which some criticise as it’s all sticking plaster isn’t it?  I mean at route you’ve got a regime in Khartoum, Omar Hassan al-Bashir, which, you know, the Economist says today is one of the nastiest regimes in the world and yet because there’s oil there, because there are strategic interests there, actually the world community isn’t prepared to act against that government.

Benn:  Well the fact that there’s oil there is nothing to do with the fact that the international community has been giving a lot of humanitarian aid, passed a number of resolutions to implement sanctions, to send an international commission of inquiry to refer what’s happened…

Boulton:  No, I understand that but you’ve got a President…

Benn:  …Adam to the International Criminal Court.  But what I was going to say is that you’re right a bigger force will be a bigger and more effective sticking plaster on the problem.  What you require is a political settlement.  Now not withstanding the nature of the regime, the longest running civil war in Africa, between the North and the South of Sudan that claimed two million lives over a generation was brought to an end by a political settlement.  The conflict in the East of the country has just been the subject of a peace agreement, it is possible if the parties put their minds to it, and that includes the rebels as well as the government, to find a political solution to this crisis.

Bolton:  Well see you’ve got a problem when I quote today’s statistics, which I think you’d accept of maybe up to half a million people losing their lives in the Darfur conflict, yet the President says oh, it’s sort of seven or eight thousand.  I mean, there is a need for a reality check surely?

Benn:  Well I think that’s a statement of somebody who’s in denial about what’s been going on.  No one knows for sure how many people have lost their lives in this awful conflict but it’s a lot more than that.  There are two million people living in camps, they’ve had to flea their homes because they’ve been burnt out of them, women and children have been killed, their houses have been destroyed.

Bolton:  I mean would you favour stronger action against the al-Bashir government?

Benn:  I favour effective action to improve the security on the ground and that’s why we’ve been working so hard to get more troops in.  I favour the government of Sudan, the rebel group that did sign in May, and the rebels who didn’t getting round the table to negotiate a peace agreement.  And if then the government , or anybody else doesn’t do what’s needed to be done to make that  happen Adam, then the world community has got to say well there’s a consequence.

Bolton:  I mean the other dimension of this of course is that China, foe example now, has made a strategic alliance with Sudan because it wants its oil.  We know that the Chinese have also apparently supported some kind of intervention, or at least control, in Somalia and yet in reality China is a member of the Security Council, we can’t stand up to China can we?

Benn:  Well it is true that China and Russia abstained on Resolution 1706 which called for a UN peacekeeping force, but China was represented at the meeting in Addis, about three weeks ago, and the Chinese representative said to the government of Sudan, look this deal that is now on offer, which is another way of achieving the same thing, more troops, sort out the finances, better command of control, said to the government of Sudan you should accept this.

Bolton:  But without Chinese support the world community is not going to be able to do much is it?

Benn:  It’s important that we have the support of the whole international community, what I’m describing to you Adam, is what the representative of China said at that meeting.  And Lam Akol, the Sudanese Foreign Minister, who was in the room, realised that the whole of the world was ranged on one side saying this is what you now need to do to try and solve this problem.

Bolton:  More broadly how worried are you about Chinese influence in Africa?  I mean there was a report I think this week by the World Bank saying just as we’ve seen the international efforts to deal with the debt problem, Live Aid, Live Aid and all the rest of it, now China’s moving in and these African countries are becoming indebted in a new way towards China.  I mean that really defeats all the work of the last two decades.

Benn:  Well it is an issue.  China is an increasingly influential world power, it’s got a lot of economic relationships with Africa, it’s buying up raw materials and natural resources.  I think it’s important that countries lend responsibly and that countries borrow responsibly because yes, all of the effort that we’ve rightly put into debt cancellation so that countries can spend their money on getting their children into school and improving healthcare, and we’ve seen real progress since Gleneagles for twenty of the world’s poorest countries every penny they owed in debt sixteen months ago to the IMF and the World Bank and the African Development Bank…

Bolton:  Now they’re getting in debt to the Chinese.

Benn:  has been written off.  Well if they are borrowing irresponsibly then that will be a problem, and I think China understands that as well as looking to Africa for its economic future China has just the same interests, that the rest of the world has, in good governance and peace and stability.  And that’s why I welcome what the Chinese representative had to say to the government of Sudan in the meeting at Addis.

Bolton:  What do you think the impact of this report here, the Iraq Study Group, is going to be on British government strategy in Iraq?

Benn:  Well I think it reflects very much what we have been trying to do which is one, in the end the future of Iraq is in the hands of the Iraqi people and as we pull back, as we increase their capacity to take responsibility for security then that’s what’s got to happen.  Secondly it recognises that the neighbours in the region can either hinder the progress of Iraq towards being a stable democracy, or they can help it, and thirdly, as the Prime Minister made very clear in responding to the Iraq Study Group report, the failure to resolve the problems of the Middle East colours everything.

Bolton:  Do you think victory is really a useful concept anymore when we think about British and American involvement in Iraq?

Benn:  I think it’s about trying to enable Iraq to have a stable and democratic future and compared with the thirty years of trauma and brutalisation and impoverishment that Saddam’s regime brought upon the people of Iraq, they have the means now to move forward because they have an elected government.  Twelve million people went to the polls to elect that government and the Iraq people have got a choice.  Either the sectarian butchers and the suicide bombers are going to be allowed to carry on doing what they’re doing, which is sowing division, or people can rally round, within the country and outside, the elected government.  And that is really the test for the future, can Iraq have a peaceful and stable future.

Bolton:  I mean the test in the sense for the Blair government, of which you’ve been a member, is that in fact when Saddam Hussein was in power there wasn’t this degree of sectarian killing, there wasn’t this effective civil war going on, so in some ways we’ve made the situation worse.

Benn:  I just don’t accept that actually because there was a lot of killing going on when Saddam was in power, as the bodies being uncovered from the desert, people who’d been shot and buried there, proves the differences that there is now an elected government, and if you say to me….

Bolton:  So we’ve made things better would you say that?

Benn:  We’ve made things different, because there is now a chance for the people to build a better future for Iraq through a government they’ve elected.  And if you ask me very frankly, Adam, do I wish that Saddam was still in power the honest answer is no I don’t and I don’t think the people of Iraq think that.  But in parts of the country it’s very grim, it’s very difficult, everybody knows that but the future of Iraq, ultimately, has to rest in the hands of the Iraqis.  They have the means to find a peaceful way forward thorough an elected government and not through violence.

Bolton:  Hilary Benn thank you very much for joining us this Sunday Live.