Press Office

Aired: Sunday, 20 August, 2006 10:00
‘Sunday Live’ with Mark Longhurst

Page 1                                                                    

 

20th August 2006.

 

Interview with Shadow Education Secretary, David Willets, MP.

 

All excerpts to be attributed to Sky News’ ‘Sunday Live’ programme with Mark Longhurst

 

 

Longhurst:          Mr Willets, thanks very much for joining us, I suppose the influence is the government is trying to get its retaliation in early before any criticism on Thursday?

 

Willets:                That’s exactly what it looks like and of course, we should remember, first of all students are working hard and I genuinely think there are many students who are doing excellent work which we do need to appreciate and congratulate them on, but it’s important that the exams, the GCSE’s, have complete integrity and trust.  And the fact that there’s ninety percent of the exams that include coursework, is too much and it’s not fair on those students whose parents perhaps aren’t so involved in education because it may advantage those who get support from parents, it tends to advantage those who use the internet, so it’s very important that we control the amount of coursework and wherever possible that it’s properly invidulated.

 

Longhurst:          The other aspect of this of course, is the shared concern with A levels from both universities and employers, that these basic skills, english literacy and maths, in terms of basic mental arithmetic, even working out percentages and so on, that a lot of quite gifted students don’t have those basic skills.

 

Willets:                Well I think we mustn’t get carried away here.  I mean there are a lot of students who are working very hard, I don’t think that it’s right when they are celebrating the success that they’ve got in A levels, and we hope with GCSEs, just to dump on their parade and say it’s all rubbish; it’s not rubbish, it’s valuable.  But we need to look forward at how we can ensure that the exams are helping universities identify the students that are most suitable for them.  That’s why I’ve called for an A-star grade, on top of an A grade, an A-star grade restricted, to say, the top ten percent, so it’s a badge of achievement that you can wear with pride.  I’ve also said that universities should get the marks of individual students, so universities know exactly how well they’ve done.  We need to make sure that the coursework is limited and is properly invidulated so the things we can do to make sure that these exams go forward into the future really useful for universities and employers and properly reflecting what our young people are achieving. 

Longhurst:          The other aspect of that of course, is also the Baccalaureate or something similar perhaps the Thomason Diploma where as well as getting an indication of how well you’re doing in a particular areas, you are getting a more wide ranging grounding in various subjects as well as doing three specific say, specialisms as in the A levels?

 

Willets:                Yeah, that’s a widespread concern.  And to be honest, looking back to my own experience which, was okay quite a while ago now, I specialised in three A levels and I didn’t do any A level in science, I think science is one of the great achievements of our century and I think it’s a great pity that I wasn’t able to do science beyond O levels as they were then.  So that is one of the arguments for the International Baccalaureate, and what we have said, and unfortunately the government haven’t responded to this yet, but the government have a sort of, by regulation, they limit the range of exams which schools can set for their students, and we have said, look this should be something where schools make the decision drawing on the needs of employers and universities.  There are some very interesting new exams being developed, International Baccalaureate is one of them that’s been around for a while.  Schools if they wish should be able to set those exams for their students.  It should be a decision for the schools thinking of what employers and universities need, we shouldn’t be restricting the choices available in state schools.

Longhurst:          Isn’t the danger then where you get a sort of pop guru where really both universities and the employers don’t know the standing of any particular educational measure and as to the various grading change from coursework to exam, people don’t really know what they are getting when they are presented with a piece of paper.  I’ve got, you know, an A or an A-star in this subject, what does that actually mean at that stage of someone’s employment potential?

Willets:                Well I do think that we should give schools that opportunity of setting other exams if they wish and I don’t think that, you know, if GCSEs and A levels can remain widely respected and valuable then they’ve got nothing to fear.  If however, a lot of schools do wish to sit some of these other exams they should be free to do so.

Longhurst:          There is an argument that the A levels, being fifty years old, that they are effectively out of date. That these were exams designed, perhaps, for people who wanted to then pursue a career in the civil service or in other sort of traditional areas, law, medicine and so on but it doesn’t apply to the modern world?

Willets:                I don’t believe A levels are out of date. I think A levels have got a very important role to play in the future.  What we’ve got to do is to make sure that A levels are working in the best interests of the students who are sitting them. So I think there are various ways we can improve them, as I said having an A-star grade on top for, say, the top ten percent.  We’ve got to make sure that we’re effective on monitoring coursework, and I have to say I’m also very weary of the value of the AS level.  One of the problems I’ve seen in the schools I’ve been visiting over the past few months is so many students now who are endlessly doing practice tests.  They do practice tests for their GCSEs, then they have their AS levels the following year, then they have their A levels.  They’ve got three successive years of public exams with a lot of time spent preparing for them and my worry is that is getting in the way of real education.  That’s why we’ve got some of these concerns being expressed by universities and the CBI.

Longhurst:          Indeed my very next question, what happens when you get this, if you like, exam overload?  That you get students who become experts in passing exams but in terms of enjoying or really embracing the subject, that goes out the window as they chase perhaps, performance levels or performance targets.

Willets:                Yes, I think that is a real problem and I have seen at schools, you go into a school and it’s incredibly quiet and you realise why it’s so quiet, they’re all sitting doing practice exam papers.  And if, for day after day, they are doing practice exam papers then of course that can kill the wider education that we want them to achieve, so we’ve got to get the balance right and it’s why David Cameron and I want to give much more trust to the professions because we do think it’s important that schools are trusted to deliver their commitment to a broad, high quality, rigorous education.  That they don’t get bogged down in teaching to the tests because the only thing they can think about is, exactly what’s the next exam and how do we prepare our children for that?  And the fact that we’ve got, for some kids, five successive years of public exams, they may be doing SATS, early GCSEs, GCSEs AS levels, A levels, five successive years of public exams can be too much and can get in the way of high quality education.

 

Longhurst:          The other aspect to this that’s starting to emerge as the tuition fees start to creep up of course, is that do we really need to give universities perhaps more choice in choosing those, as you say, top students, A plus students?  Because certainly it looks as if universities are having to offer laptops, even ten thousand pound bursaries to attract students because of this sudden fall off in applications particularly through clearing.

Willets:                Yes it does look as if universities are finding things tougher, but the problem is, that although we’ve got all this information in students’ A levels, for which they’ve worked very hard, it’s not all being made available to universities in the best way.  That’s why I think that universities should have a right, for example, to see the students’ individual marks.  I think that would enable them to identify the students who are most suitable for them and also, yes, there needs to be much better information for students, A level students, on the right A level mix that they need to get into university.  One of the big problems that I discovered this summer, visiting the summer schools that some universities run is their frustrated that sometimes students have done bad mixes of A levels, which don’t enable them to then get to the university courses that they wish to do.  That’s why students need better advice from schools and careers advisors on the best combination of A levels.

Longhurst:          And also many suggesting advice on the financial implications and how to really cost out the three to four years needed now for further education.  What’s the current Tory thinking about where we stand on tuition fees and grants?  I mean certainly suggestions that if we have to look at ever higher figures we are not as equipped as the States are, for instance, in heavy hitting Ivy League set up, where the cash is available for those brighter students.

Willets:                Yes, I mean we have to be very careful.  My party recognises, and the universities have been telling me loud and clear, that they do need the money that comes from the student fees that have been introduced.  Although I realise they are unpopular with students, in the long run it’s in the interests of all of us that we have a high quality higher education system, and that means there being able to charge the fees.  But we need to look at a wider range of mechanisms for bringing more money to universities.  I still think there is a lot more we can do to encourage people who themselves have benefited from a high quality education in a university then to put some back in.  American universities, those Ivy League universities, are so much better than we are at encouraging people who have really made a financial success of their lives, based on what they learnt at university, then to give money back.  We are still way behind there, we should be doing more.

Longhurst:          Perhaps one measure that could help parents, of course afford further education is a relaxation in inheritance tax.  Now Stephen Byers has rocked the Labour party this morning by saying really it ought to be scrapped, Margaret Thatcher shied away from that, certainly in previous years.  What would David Cameron perhaps suggest as to the way that the Tories should go on this?

Willets:                Well firstly let me congratulate you on your very ingenious move so elegantly from higher education to inheritance tax.

Longhurst:          I was hoping you wouldn’t notice that!

Willets:                I mean obviously I read what was in the papers, I mean we’ve got a tax review commission that is working at the moment and we do understand there is a lot of unhappiness about the way the overall tax system works.  We are committed to simpler, flatter taxes but I don’t think that, this is an internal row going on in the Labour party where Stephen Byers is trying to score some points off Gordon Brown.  We’ve got a tax commission we’ll look forward to their report and then we will consider the right way forward.

Longhurst:          Ok, just one other matter before you go in terms of political matters in the papers today, much coverage for Damian Green’s call, the immigration spokesman, for immigrant workers particularly from Bulgaria and Romania, when they join the E.U. looking at obviously what has happened in terms of Polish workers coming into Britain.  Some maybe surprised because surely this is adding competition to the market place for builders and decorators and so on?

Willets:                Well what has happened now, I think, is that there is growing concern as to whether we can really absorb uncontrolled immigration from Romania and Bulgaria.  We have to remember that people who lose out are not people sitting in smart London houses who can get more plumbers or get more builders or get more help around the house, the people who lose out are some of the people in Britain who find that what’s already low pay is driven down lower.  Some people who can’t find a job at all, and what we’re committed to do, we’ve got to help the people who are being let down by the education system, that’s why raising standards in education is so important, and then find when they emerge into the jobs market they just can’t find any job that enables them to maintain their family.  And that’s why Damian is rightly saying look we need to talk to our other members of the E.U. about a consistent framework for gradually phasing in easier access to our jobs market from Romania and Bulgaria.  Rather than doing it all in one go, that could be a real threat, you know, to some of the school leavers whose GCSEs we’ve just been talking about.

Longhurst:          David Willets thank you very much indeed, nice to see that the sun may be just about to come out in Hampshire.