Press Office

Aired: Sunday, 17 October, 2004 11:41
Sunday with Adam Boulton, Sky News

Interview with Lord Healey, former Labour Chancellor

Any excerpts used to be attributed to Sky News’ ‘Sunday With Adam Boulton’ programme.

Presenter: Martin Stanford

Stanford: Do you think that, in general, the British should be supporting the Americans in Iraq?

Healey: No I don’t. I think it was a great mistake. And I thought, even before it happened, it should never happen.

Stanford:   And the idea that British forces should be moved away from their base around Basra, and perhaps to go in and support the Americans around Baghdad would be one you would similarly oppose is it?

Healey:  Even more strongly because the Americans are bombing civilians. They killed 60 women and children in April in the bombing of Fallujah, I think it is an absolute disaster.

Stanford:  Robin Cook has expressed the view that appears to be chiming with yours,

that even if the British forces were to do even more than they do now, they may well reap what the Americans have sown. The attitude of the Iraqis  to any political persuasion might be more hostile to the British troops if they move out of the Basra zone. 

Healey:    I think that is absolutely true. If we do anything, it is better to do it in Basra where we have managed to keep the bulk of the population on our side. The Americans, by bombing civilians without any real care or attention, have turned the whole of the Iraqi people against them and indeed the whole of the Muslim world against them, even as far as the Philippines.

Stanford: In which case,  what would your strategy be? To leave the country into the rather uncertain future that it has now? Or do you think we have to see this thing through at least until the elections next year?

Healey:  No, I think we should get out as fast as we possibly can.

Stanford: Are you advocating that we should leave even before the elections next year?

Healey:   Of course, yes. There is no justification in being there whatever. More and more people are being killed. The whole of the Muslim world already regards Bush as the great Satan as they call him. And of course we are now being pushed into a similar position under Blair.

Stanford:  The problems that might run on from a premature, as some would see it, departure of British forces would be that the country might become even more unstable than the pessimists regard it at the moment. Wouldn’t that be seen as a criticism of Britain, that we ran away with a job half done?

Healey: Whatever happens, whenever we leave, the longer we stay, the more unstable it will be when we leave. The sensible thing is to have the United Nations Security Council Force under the Security Council, and that, I think, would have some chance of getting support from the Iraqis themselves. The Americans have no chance whatever. And our alliance with the Americans is ruining our position - not only in Iraq but throughout the Muslim world.

Stanford: So there is a subtlety about what beret you wear? It could be the same British forces there, but they need to be under a UN mandate, perhaps wearing a UN coloured beret, and you would admit there is work for an outside team to do?

Healey: I think now there is going to be a prolonged civil war as a result of the actions we have taken. I think the important thing now ,is to try to get some sort of police established in the area. And I think the best way to do that is by a United Nations force. It may well be unwise for the UN to employ us as members. The Germans and French, I think, would be prepared to do that.

Stanford: Prolonged civil war you say? Between whom?

Healey: Between the Sunnis, the Shias and the Kurds. And the trouble is that the Kurdish people overlap into Turkey so it should cause trouble for the Turks as well. And the Turks of course are members of NATO.

Stanford: This would seem an unnecessarily gloomy prediction. We haven’t had any reports of problems in Kurdistan or the area of north Iraq run by the Kurds. Large areas of the south and east of the country appear to be trouble free. Are we not being distorted by the problems ongoing in the west of the country, in Fallujah, and in particular around Baghdad?

Healey: Of course. The trouble is, the longer the Americans stay the more anti-western feelings will grow and the more the civil war will increase. Already, more people have

been killed in Iraq since the official end of the war than during the war itself,. And that will continue and get worse and worse until we go.

Stanford: Is the election process underway, not worth having then? The one they are hoping to hold next January……..

Healey: I think it is better if the elections are held under the United Nations auspices rather than British and American auspices.

Stanford: Does the interim government give the election some legitimacy?

Iis it not the Iraqi people trying to bring about some democratic change for their own benefit?

Healey: They may well be. But as I say, the important thing is that we are not trusted. In fact we are hated now throughout the Muslim world. And it is going to cause great trouble even in Saudi Arabia -  it is undermining the stability of the Saudi Government already which would be a total disaster and could lead to a cut off of oil to the western world. The sooner we get out the better.

Stanford: You are very critical of this policy. Does this criticism extend to Tony Blair’s leadership and the wider issues facing him and the country?

Healey: I think Iraq is to Blair what the Suez crisis was to Anthony Eden. But I think Blair is more like Margaret Thatcher in that his policy on university entrance fees and foundation hospitals is rather like Thatcher’s on the poll tax. I think there is a real risk that the Labour members of parliament will decide that he is no longer right to lead them and Gordon Brown will take over. And the sooner that happens, in my view, the better.

Stanford: Should that happen before the election?

Healey: I think so. Because according to the opinion polls Gordon Brown is more popular than Tony Blair.

Stanford: Maybe, within the Labour Party. But he is not necessarily more popular as a leader of the party in the country as a whole, is he?

Healey: Yes, he is in the polls. The polls show that Labour under Brown would do better than Labour under Blair.

Stanford: I have seen one poll which suggested that Blair is still an electoral asset to the Labour party and that he is more likely to win a third term than Brown.. You disagree presumably?

Healey: I do. And I have seen other polls which take the opposite view. But I don’t really believe opinion polls very much. I think the trouble is, the longer we go on with this war the more unpopular the Labour party and Blair, in particular, will become.

Stanford: Lord Healey, from your home in Sussex, thank you very much for being with us.