Press Office

Aired: Sunday, 8 January, 2006 10:00
Sunday with Adam Boulton, Sky News

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Sunday 8th January 2006.

 

Interview with former Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Barak.

 

Any excerpts used to be attributed to Sky News’ ‘Sunday with Adam Boulton’ programme.

 

Boulton:          Thank you for joining us.  If confirmation was needed we now have it that the era of Ariel Sharon is over in Israeli politics.  How much of a loss is that to Israeli politics at the moment?

Barak:            Yes we are still praying for his survival and optimists still hope that he will recover in a fuller way, but it is clear that he will not come back to politics.  That leaves a great big vacuum.  He was at the height of an effort in the way a u-turn in his old policies when he decided to pull out from Gaza after being the Founding Father of the settlements that will need continuation.

Boulton:          You were really as Prime Minister, the first man to come forward with the idea of the security fence which has now been executed.  Ariel Sharon as you say put withdrawals from Gaza, and possibly from the West Bank, as a development of that process.  With or without Arial Sharon is it going to go on?

Barak:            I believe so and I hope so I such admit.  I think that Israeli leaders are acting, they cannot act independent of realities around us, because it serves the real deepest interest of the state of Israel in order to protect our own security and identity we have to disengage from the Palestinians and allow a nation, two nations or two states, to emerge in old Palestine.  I believe that whoever would be elected be it, Olmert, Peres or even Netenyahu, will end up leading into this direction that I continued after Rabin and Sharon ended up continuing after myself.

Boulton:          I mean this is basically a reality check if you like, by Israel, that a greater Israel is not possible, because of demographic changes and therefore secure borders, albeit more confined, are the only way for a Jewish state to survive. Would that be fair?

Barak:            Yes I think that that is a fair description; we have 10 million people between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean.  If there is only one political unit called Israel reigning over this area it will end up either bi-national state or an apartheid state because there are 6.5 million Israelis and 3.5 million Palestinians.  If there are not two separate nations or states, for the two nations it will become either non-democratic or non-Jewish. Neither is the Zionist dream.

Boulton:          The security wall has in some areas been described as a land grab; do you think there will need to be surrender of territory beyond what Ariel Sharon promised to secure that peace?

Barak:            I think the security wall or fence that basically now covers, in the new line covers 8 percent of the area of the West Bank and inside it is 70 or 80 percent of the settlers is the proper balance of compromise between the need to secure Israel and as much Israelis as we can and the need to provide the Palestinians with as continuous territory as we can..  I think that is exactly the kind of line that was on the table at Camp David when I negotiated with President Clinton and Arafat.  And that was the American position that on this line the Palestinians should negotiate a permanent agreement, and this is only a unilateral step so I think it hits the right balance.

Boulton:          You yourself have decided not to stand in the upcoming Israeli elections where of course there is this new party Kadima founded by Ariel Sharon intending to stand.  Now that Ariel Sharon is not going to be part of that election are you re-considering your position?

Barak:            I will have enough time to consider it if and when the time comes but I think that basically now we are in, Sharon is still struggling for his very life I don’t think it is proper for us Israelis at least to deal with this level of politics.  I am confident that the inner core of his legacy, namely taking our destiny in our hands, and deciding our own future, even if unilaterally, and act out of self confidence to provide a better future for Israel and, by the way, to the Palestinians as well.  This legacy should be continued by whoever will come to power and I will support these kinds of policies even if I do now stay in the centre of the political arena.

Boulton:          Without Ariel Sharon though does Israeli politics need his new party Kadima?

Barak:            I think that the very establishment of Kadima was a good idea and it ended up to be politically shrewd but it was necessary because it clarified the dividing lines between the Israelis politics.  It’s not between the right and left in the old terms, it’s between those who understand, who opened their eyes and understood that there is a need for disengagement.  There is a need to establish a regime of two states for two nations and the extreme right, who for some reason still hold to them the messianic dream however a beautiful one, that by mingling with the Arabs we can reach a better end, either to Israelis or to Palestinians.

Boulton:          And is there a vacuum now in Israeli, obviously there is the personal tragedy, the plight of Ariel Sharon, but effectively is this for example a moment of opportunity for the enemies of Israel do you feel?

Barak:            I don’t think so.  Israelis are too strong in a way you know, there is never too strong!  But we are the strongest country surrounded by Jerusalem but I think someone might try but you know in a way, the temporary government will be tougher not softer on any attempt to derail the relative tranquility that we enjoy in the last few weeks.  And I see that there is you know, a smooth and effective transition process in Israel and in spite of the personal vacuum when Sharon is not there, we’ll see replacement.  He doesn’t have the aura of a warrior or a legendary politician but he’s very shrewd person, very talented, very gifted, has a lot of experience in thirty-two years in the Knesset.  He was in many ministerial portfolios from the very down there to the top role of Deputy Prime Minster and Minster of Finance and he was a member of many sub-committees of the Knesset and of the foreign and the security affairs committee, dealing with the most sensitive issues that Israel is involved in.

Boulton:          On perhaps the most sensitive issues facing Israel now, you yourself are a former military man.  Do you think it is looking likely that in the course of this year, Israel will seek to take some sort of pre-emptive action against Iran’s nuclear program?

Barak:             I hope not I think that the Iranian military nuclear program is a threat not just for Israel but to any possible world order.  If we, the free world, will allow the Iranian Ayatollahs to defy the will of the whole world and turn nuclear, militarily speaking, that will be the end of the story of blocking nuclear proliferation.  It might end up with in a few years time with Iranian arsenal and even worse, you know, we might end up with nuclear technologies in the hands of terrorists groups!  And the case of Abdul Kadir Al Han in Pakistan was a close call already.  So I think it should be dealt by diplomacy, by referring the Iranians to the Security Council, ending up with sanctions and more important a tight inspection regime.  If and when the Iranians will reject a tight inspection regime this will be the point when the world community will have to consider what else we can do in order to block them from becoming nuclear or at least delaying it for many years.

Boulton:          Finally your thoughts on Sharon, of course a political opponent of yours, globally a very controversial figure throughout his military career and of course following the Sabra and Shatila massacres.  How do you think history should remember Ariel Sharon’s contribution?

Barak:            History will judge him according to his last five years and it will overshadow everything which is negative in the past.  He had a very positive contributions to Israel; he was one of our best ever Field Commanders.  He established the first commander units of Israel and led crucial battle to cross the canal in the Yom Kippur War.  I know him for forty-three years now and fought with him, I was junior when he was most senior in the army, for decades.  And in spite of all political rivalry and even harsh criticisms that I launched at him, in Israel we are always in the family and we know each other at a certain level of empathy and closeness that is kept forever.  I think of him very positively; he’s a great Israeli legendary warrior and courageous political leader that could at the age of seventy-five make a u-turn to really focus on the real profound interests of Israel security and future, against many of the ideas of policies that he actively pushed along all of his mature life.  I think that that becomes a great kind of, I don’t know how to call it, a great honour puts upon him, a great respect.

Boulton:          Thank you very much Ehud Barak for joining us this Sunday.